PepTalkHer Founder & CEO Meggie Palmer chatted with Josh Pugh of America Josh. Josh spoke about his experience, the importance of building a community online, and how you can get started. There was a lot of wisdom shared.
I am America Josh. I moved to New York three years ago and when I got here I realized that there was nothing really set up in the way of structured information for people that have just arrived in the city or arrived in the US. I thought wouldn't it be handy if there was something out there that had all the information that basically people on Facebook groups are asking over and over again? Wouldn't it be handy if there was something that brought it all into one spot? It got built a bit of a community around that and suddenly America Josh was formed.
It was to be completely honest, a bit of a side hustle, and in New York, you know everyone's got three different jobs and they're doing ten different things. So this was mine.
I realized quickly that there were lots of people that were going through the same thing that I was going through and asking the same questions. I started writing blogs and started collaborating with different groups and different companies and different people to try and hit all that information in one spot. It's turned into a community of, right now, about three and a half thousand people all across the United States started in New York. So I'm in New York, obviously, it's centered there but it's starting to really extend down the coast and across to the west coast and it's now a community and a website that all sort of feeds into a site full of tips and tricks, and stories. It's trying to soften the blow when you land, basically.
Meggie: With everything going on, obviously the economy is in a lot of trouble. But it's interesting that people are craving community and connection right now. I think we all have that kind of fear around the economy. We're all turning to the community. For people who are sitting at home, who are maybe feeling a little bit isolated, given the current Corona situation, what would you say to those people?
What is the key tip for building a community? When you move cities, move countries, when you may be isolated at home, what's something tangible that people can do to help them?
Josh: I think being honest is a really important part of it. I don't mean you can pretend about the community that you're from and the community that you're trying to build. Me being an ex-pat going to the US, I could build around exactly what I was doing. I think as you said, especially at this time, you want to find that little niche. Something that's just like you in a bigger situation. So if for me it's people that have moved over in the greater US that's kind of my niche.
I think it's you communicating a lot. It's making sure that you've got an honest portrayal of the information and that you've researched it. You aren't just simply there trying to sell a particular thing, where you aren't trying to navigate every one particular path. You're accommodating and you're welcoming and inviting. I think all of those elements. Especially in the time like now where people are freaking out, they are uncertain about what's going on outside and they want some comfort.
They want to be able to trust someone. I think that's the biggest thing. They don't look for any particular sort of piece of advice. They're just looking for someone they can trust and someone they can look to in a time of good times and say “what a great recommendation for a restaurant, Josh.” But then, in the bad times, they can be like you know, in my case, you know coronavirus is impacting people legally so they're wondering. Know they've got crucial questions that are fundamental to their future, their lives and I think that's when they can look to you and trust you on the same level. So it doesn't really matter about the content. It's trust and confidence.
Meggie: If you go on Instagram right now, everyone's going live? Everyone's sharing. Everyone's connecting. I would imagine Instagram and Facebook have probably had you know their biggest spike in use and allotments ever. Why are we humans craving it so much right now?
Why do you think the community is so important for us and why at the moment at this time are we all kind of calling everybody we haven't spoken to for 10 years?
Josh: I think you're exactly right. I think we're all looking for something that's familiar. And I think when everything else gets scary when everything else gets extra uncertain, extra unfamiliar, you're looking for the one little thing that you can narrow down on, sort of burrow in on and say “this is me. This is my core.”
For a lot of people that do travel, again I'll use some samples that are relevant to my community. But the people that have come here, they do have the familiarity of their hometown. They've got the familiarity of their home country. That's their identity. They narrow down in a time where they don't know what else to look for. So they find that bit and they say you know “I've got this little morsel, at least I know that. I'm confident of that. I'm not sure about the rest of the world. I'm not sure about the economy. I'm not sure where my job might be. I'm not sure about anything else outside but at least I've got that.”
I think that's what we're seeing. The engagement on Facebook groups for us at the moment is growing outrageously fast because people are asking every hour of the day. There are a few different questions that are popping up and people are going “oh my god! what does this mean to me?”
You can talk to that community that knows your background because they've all lived it before. They're all part of that same kind of collective, that same community. So I think all of those little moving pieces start to make it feel like you need to reach out. You need some community to talk to, someone you've got a nice base.
Meggie: Back in the olden days when you know humans used to sit around a campfire. It's kind of the same thing as a campfire. I think fashion designer, Karen Walker, we both spoke at a vogue event maybe 12 months ago now. She uses that analogy of a community. Social media, it's a campfire right. Like you're there to share. You're not there to dictate. You're not very young, you're not there to sell. You're there to share and like to exchange information and I just love that analogy.
Josh: I think it's exactly right. I think that collaborative nature. But I think for me when you talk about those stories and say how important they are, I completely agree. I think the one thing that I've really learned quite quickly is that vulnerability is a big part of the story that I tell. Because people, nobody wants to be vulnerable. I'm a 32-year-old who moved over. I'm confident I know what I'm doing. I know the world and I got to New York and my story is that I didn't know how to order a sandwich at a bodega. It's one of the most ridiculous stories ever and it sounds outrageous.
For those of you who haven't been to New York, corner store deli, kind of sandwich bar, I walked in and they sort of said what do you want. I'm standing there and thinking I am a business-owning man, I've done things and I don't know how to order a sandwich. Telling that story to people, immediately, their faces would light up. They'd be like, “oh my god! I went to the mix right like I was trying to catch the train and I couldn't work out how to do it. But a whole line of people formed behind me and I didn't know how to scan my ticket.” Some are different but they're sort of silly stories but people gravitate towards them. As you said, it's like being around the campfire. It's like sitting there and saying, no! Oh my god! This thing happened today or you know I had a terrible day or I just want to talk through something.
You're not necessarily looking for someone to fix it. You just want to get it off your chest and I think America Josh has certainly built on the fact that this idea, that you're not going to be good at this. You can't move internationally and expect that you're going to land on your feet and just run. It's going to suck a little bit of it. You know you might like the bigger picture and on the whole, that's going to go really well. But there's going to be elements of it that you should detest and you'll be sad and you'll think, I'm no good at this. And having that community means that you can ask that question and say, hey as anyone lives through this and not have to reinvent the wheel every single time.
The content that I'm writing is very much you know oh trying to order a sandwich, get there and write the story of how I ordered a sandwich. There is an article. The third one I wrote on how to order in a bodega. There's no sign that says as you could order. Do you know what he asked me was do you want that in a hero? And a hero now, I think it's only in New York, even that's a big role but that means absolutely nothing. I'm thinking, Spider-man, Superman. No. I'll just stick to bread and it sounds ridiculous and but you look like, we feel like an idiot for a few seconds then you realize you shouldn't have to feel like that.
Then you know it's completely fair to be standing there and in the unknown environment that you're in and say “I don't know.” That's where the community you can say “I don't know you, do feel comfortable” because the other people in that community are probably in the same position and you start to feel like you've got a teammate. You've got someone beside you and it's trying to reinforce that it's trying to make sure that all those people around in that community are getting that support.
Can you just talk about when you grow a community and then you turn it into a business? What’s one of the benefits of having a strong community, and then creating revenue essentially?
Josh: I think networking, we all kind of hate the word and we all hate the concept of business networking, but I think it is valuable. I moved from Adelaide, South Australia. So I moved from a relatively very small city in the grand scheme of things to a very big city and having that network and those referral networks, for example, is essential in Adelaide. Because there aren't that many people to choose from. You need to know who to trust and when I got to New York I thought it would all be based on merits. You'd be straight up and down what your resume looks like basically and that's how you'd get jobs. But it turns out, it's not.
It's the community that you've built. It's the networks. It's the people you can talk to because the universe is true. There are so many people in New York that you don't know who to trust. So if the exact same problem as you have in a small town or a small city as you do in a big city. I think once you build that community and you build that trust and people do see that you're vulnerable.
So for me, the business has always been about telling people where my shortcomings are. So it's, “we do ABC really, really well but DD we don't do.” And it shocked makers. When I got to New York that's not the language that people use. When they do business here and it's not the sort of language people use very much in general. They don't say they have vulnerabilities. They don't say they aren't perfect. They say you know whatever you want, we'll take care of it.
And I think we all know that can't be true. You can't be perfect at everything and having that you know community support. People that have seen you when you are at your best or haven't seen you when you might be a little bit vulnerable or when you've got a problem. You can segue that into saying, “now you've seen you can trust me. You've seen and it's genuine. You know this is not some scam.” They were generally, genuinely giving up that information people can then say, “well I don't know when we're talking about business. So we're talking about some professional elements I'm willing to trust you with. I'm willing to follow your recommendation.”
People now will follow. You know if I say I recommend, maybe for something, they'll say “I trust Josh because based on you know the segue from the community that I was a part of to now the business that I'm involved with I'm willing to trust and trust and trust and trust.” And it keeps sort of flowing on like that. I think that's something that only exists when you’re a part of something and once you've been in a good time just like I’ve said before with the coronavirus and everything that's going on at the moment. These are the darker days. The harder times when you've had someone through the good times and it was easy and you still trust them now is the time you get to rely on them and you can sort of call on those networks and call on those trusts.
Meggie: It's so interesting you bring up relationships during tough economic times. I like what you said as well Josh is that like when you're building a community, honesty and vulnerability are so powerful. And I think people are willing to give a lot as well when you kind of share those shortcomings. The necessity in this day and age to kind of share quite openly.
Josh: I think it is and I think we want to know the interview question, know what aren't you good at, and we Google. We look up what story details so that you look good and sometimes it's always very easy to see when people have done that and having those genuine people around in the community means that they see it by nature of just being a part of it. As opposed to you having to be prompted and tell a story and sometimes it's better that they've been a part of it and they've seen it moment for a moment as it happens and then they can engage with you. Like, I saw when that happened and I saw how you dealt with that problem and now I'm willing to trust you. I think it's really difficult to be vulnerable and in a market where it's going to get more difficult over the coming weeks and months. I think it's going to get even more difficult because you don't want to show that you are vulnerable. You don't want to show that you've got weaknesses but I think there's great value in doing that because it does show people that you're not perfect.
None of us are perfect. We're all struggling and you know some way, I'm nothing. Like I've got food here and I'm happy but there are issues always in the background that I might be a little bit personally worried about or know things that I'm always thinking about. And I think having someone close to you having a network around, that having a community around, that can highlight that without having to actively do.
Meggie: I'm noticing at PepTalkHer that a lot of clients that we're working with at the corporate level, they're also looking to build community. They're building a community in New York around people in the telecom industry and then like Salesforce is a big client of ours, is building a very big community of women in sales not with the intention of selling Salesforce products but just the intention of supporting and building community. It's really interesting that it's not just like us as individuals, it's businesses as well that are looking to build those communities so they can really help support it and pay it forward which I find quite interesting.
Josh: I think it's important. I think there is an element for it having to happen a little bit organically. I think that's something that I've seen, some try to force it too much and they say effectively welcome to our family and you’re now just part of it and that I don't think it works. I think it does need to happen that you now find something that already exists. Find that niche. Find those groups and bring them and I think you can't just say to someone, “we're building a community. You're now our newest remember” because that doesn't give anyone the sense that they're actually part of anything.
If they subscribe, if they're interested because they see some value, they see a tangible something that they can get an answer from, I think that's when people start to gravitate towards it. And so if you find someone and find a small group that you can answer a question or if you find a small group that all have something in common and facilitate that, that can grow a community inside a bigger community and that inside a bigger group. I think slowly but surely, businesses can do it really effectively and then people do have something's been bad at work or if they want to talk to someone, they do have the people in their community around them to go to and to say “help, I need some assistance.” That can't be forced.
Should you enhance the community that exists already or should you start a new one?
Meggie: Because there are a lot of Facebook groups out there. There's a lot of Instagram accounts, a lot of businesses. I would say that the community takes time and you're not going to build 110, 000 women or men or whoever it is in your community overnight. That literally took them three or four years and that's astronomical. So I would say that if you're in it for the long haul, go for it but maybe start to feel what’s lacking. You could start in that area. What do you think?
Josh: Completely, in my opinion, I think enhancing and working with other communities or adjacent networks and things is the best way to do it. America Josh, I'm very much gone with the idea that supporting the things that already exist and being complementary to them is the best way. I'm not trying to take over everything they do because they've probably got a niche that is slightly different from what I'm looking at and I think you can, therefore, be a part of it.
I think you do genuinely mean to be a part of it and you need to contribute to it and enhance it and then you might find that you've built a niche that is slightly different. You can then sort of say, hold on I'm gonna build on this element of what I've now built and grow it because you don't necessarily need to start by walking and saying, I don't think anyone really wants to walk in and say like, I've now got a crew. You now join this group, that's it. I think people want to say you know who they are. You like why I trust you and I think that comes from the heart, seeing and building on something that already exists.
Meggie: I thought we'd wrap up with our top three tips for building community. I'm gonna rattle off a couple of mine Josh and then I'd love you to close it off for us. I reckon the key thing is to have your own voice, to be really clear in your tone of voice because as I said you are different from anyone else and so I can just own that. That's what I think is really cool. I think communicating and sometimes over-communicating stuff that you think is boring is often very interesting to your community. And the other thing that I would say is taking this idea of give, give, get. So like giving to your community. Giving, giving, and not expecting in return immediately. I think it's really important to kind of build that trust. What would you say?
What are your top three tips for building a community?
Find your niche
Josh: Realistically, I think it is finding that niche. I think it's finding a particular group but then offering a lifetime at the moment where I can Google something and get 45 million results and I think some people, a lot of people, and most people now just want to be told what is the answer. It might not be the only answer and I get that but what is your preferred answer and giving someone it's simple to step by step of “here's the way to answer that.” That's number one.
Be honest and be present
I think honesty is important. I think it's really crucial and I think in addition to that it's being present to curate. I think there are lots of loud voices that you'll find when you're building a community and you'll find that some people are very quiet but they're fantastic community members and you need to be there to moderate and sort of equivocate those two volumes and make sure that everyone in the community is being heard.
Don’t always take criticisms
And three, I've got a controversial one for my number three. It’s “don't always take criticism”. So, early on people would give me feedback and say “I didn't like the ABC part of this dinner that I went to with you”. We sort of live in a world where you meant to do that customer's always right mentality. I do think you need to listen to community members, don't get me wrong. But I do think there are some times where you can say “no, I believe in this idea for this community. I believe that this is the right way to do it.” And I think we have this tendency like when you're starting a small business, you want to take on all the work you possibly can. You might take on things that aren't quite right for you.
I think it's the same for the community. You might take on some people that aren't quite right for you. And it's okay to drop people from the community and that sounds brutal but I think it's okay. To say like you don't fit into my niche. I think we want to be all-inclusive and I think you should absolutely try but sometimes you have to say like I don't think this is working and I still believe in my mission for my community. So I think you are allowed to be a little bit brazen, a little bit confident that you've got a good idea. Listen to others but don't necessarily always bend to the will of everyone that contributes.
“It’s making sure that you’ve got an honest portrayal of the information and that you’ve researched it. You aren’t just simply there trying to sell a particular thing, where you aren’t trying to navigate every one particular path. You’re accommodating and you’re welcoming and inviting.”
You can check out more info on Josh’s website here.
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